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**David (PassMark)** · Sep-06-2010, 03:23 AM

It scored an overall 1,567.1. I was upset when I started comparing it to other systems on the sites 20 best and worst systems. Mine rated 2nd to last in the worst.

The 20 worst systems can be found here.
They range from a score of 1 to 17 for the PassMark rating.

You scored 1567. Significantly higher that all the worst systems. But no where near good enough to be a top 20 system. Which is to be expected as you are building a budget system.

CPU is the most important component. Disk and video are the next. The quantity of RAM isn't so important, nor is the motherboard (provided it supports the CPU).

**JonC1087** · Sep-06-2010, 03:54 AM

So for a Game PC, what type of CPU should I aim for on a budget PC? I read that the Phenom 2 x4 series has the best bang for your buck. However, if most games can't utilize 4 cores effectively then should I go with a better architecture for more calculations per clock cycle on each core? the phenom 2 x4 did not get a very high rating, but is a cost effective multi core CPU.
Basically, how many cores should I limit myself to on a Game PC? 3? Can't remember if I read that most games don't utilize all 4 cores. I know they don't utilize the 6 core CPU's.

Then for the Graphics card, I do not plan on going under a ATI HD 5850. Would it be more wise to spend more $$ here and not have to rely on crossfire? this would allow me to save money on a single PCIE slot MB instead of needing a 2 x PCIE MB theoretically.

And lastly for Discs, from my understanding, it would not be wise to put more money into a SSD unless it's just a small one for the OS since it will not affect gaming performance in a noticeable way to justify the price. So what kind of Disc should I be looking at? I got the 1TB 7200RPM instead of a 500GB because I figured they may read data faster on the outer edge of a platter on a higher capacity drive, but that was just a theory. Should I upgrade capacity to a 2TB? or down to a higher RPM drive and lower capacity? Stripe them in RAID 0 with multiple Discs?

Oh also the memory, should that be the same concept as the CPU? quality over quantity? Is all 1333 memory equal? do some have higher performance measures than others in the same grade? What quantity can I get away with for gaming? Could I save more on going below 4GB DDR3? will 2GB suffice?

Sorry for the long post, just trying to build as I ask questions

Again, thanks for all of the help, your insight has already changed my order of the build.

PS: I tweaked the OS a little before a ran a second passmark. I adjusted windows for performance and turned all of the pretty stuff off, it scored around a 1760 this time. Significantly higher just for turning off the pretty aero effects. I did notice that you could not change the priority of the passmark software in the taskmgr to give it exclusive resource rights to possibly get a higher score

. I also shut down all of the additional programs and services in Msconfig that did not need to be running at the time. Theoretically, would disabling desktop composition in the compatibility tab of a programs properties increase performance? Ok.. I'm stopping now. thanks again

**David (PassMark)** · Sep-06-2010, 04:20 AM

The ideal CPU and video card for budget gaming depends somewhat on the game. Different games can use different numbers of core and place different load on the CPU and video.

But 6 or 8 cores is generally overkill for gaming (for the moment).

If you are on a budget then SSDs are not really the best option. As you will still need a normal drive in any case.

Disk capacity won't help speed. In fact some of the smaller capacity drives (like the 10K and 15K drives as examples) are faster.

RAID can help, but you need the right motherboard and 2 drives. Which is also not good for the budget.

RAM speed only has a small impact. Maybe 5% to 10% on game play. Stick with 4GB however. Some current games, and many future games will use the 4GB of RAM. And it is good as disk cache in any case.

**wonderwrench** · Sep-06-2010, 07:00 AM

Those specs look good to me if the selling price is $1000. In any case it should be a good entry level gaming system and should be able to play any game at high or near high settings. 8 gigs of ram would be the next step up IMO. The M4A88T-M board should have the 880G chipset BTW.

-Motherboard (must support all other hardware used)

-CPU (very important)
-Graphics card (same as above)
-RAM (same as above)
All three are equal IMO, if any one is lacking gaming will suffer.

-HDD's and SSD's (only really affects game load and level load times)
-Chipsets on the board (must support all other hardware used)
-PCIE2.0 vs 1.0 or 1.1 (must support the video card(s) used)
-Do I need dual PCIE for crossfire? or just one bad A** PCIE card?
An HD5970 is really two under clocked HD5870's on a single card. So two HD 5870's are faster than a single HD 5970. Many gamers think they need Crossfire/SLI so being able to offer it to them may be a good idea but no one really needs it. A HD 5850/5870 or GTX 460/465/470 should handle any game as long as the resolution is 1920x1080 or lower. If someone wants or needs more a single HD 5970 or GTX 480 should do. If you decide to build Crossfire or SLI machines with high powered cards depending on the cards used and the CPU used you my need a quality 1000 watt or larger PSU.

-Cooling and optimal temperatures for components. Cooling is always important on any system. The higher performance the system is the better cooling it will need. At stock CPU speeds the retail CPU heatsink normally works fine. At a minimum you will need 2 120 mm case fans, one front blowing in one rear blowing out. An additional intake fan blowing toward the GPU on the side cover would be nice addition. Video cards either vent heat out the rear of the case or into the case. Video cards that vents out the rear of the case exclusively need less case cooling than cards that vent into the case. Most HD 5xxx cards and GTX 4xx cards vent both ways.

For temperature testing OCCT and possibly a temp monitoring software such as Speedfan should do the trick. Depending on the video card used you may need additional software to read GPU temp. Using OCCT load all CPU cores and the video card at the same time. This should allow you to see temps under extreme conditions. This test is called the "Power Supply" test. Test with the case covers off then with them on. In general CPU and GPU load temps should not increase by more than 10-15C with the case covers on. The less increase the better.

Keep in mind reported temps are not necessarily accurate so you need to get a feel for whats what. Never allow an AMD CPU to run over 60-65C. Same goes for older Intel CPU's. Higher end i series Intel CPU's tend to run hot and many people run them in the 60-80C range under heavy load without problems. Some think the reported temps are way high but who knows for sure. GPU's generally run 70-100C under heavy load. Anything higher may eventually cause damage. Abort the test if temps get out of hand or you get screen corruption. In a perfect world CPU temp should be under 55C and the GPU under 80C when under load. If CPU and or GPU temps are too high with the case covers off you either have a hardware problem or temps are being misreported.

Case temp can be used to tune case cooling though its not a must. It's best measured using a digital thermometer placed near the center of the case, not near a heat source. In the CPU fan intake air stream works well. With the system fully loaded a 10C-15C temp rise when the case covers are installed would be acceptable as long as other temps are OK. All testing should be done long enough for heat soak to take place, 20-30 minutes. Room temp will make a huge difference in the test results. A system that cools fine in a 24C (75F) room may overheat in a 30C (85F) room. To be sure test higher room temp.

This may sound like a lot of work and it is but it needs to be done. I only build a few PC's a year but everyone is tested in the same way. For engineering ease you can use higher CFM case fans and a fan controller to set the speeds accordingly. Once you get an idea how much air flow you need change over to lower CFM fans that hopefully match your needs determined in testing. Some motherboards can control fan speeds of more than just the CPU. If the board you choose has this ability testing using the bios to control fans speeds or Speedfan itself are other options.

Once you figure cooling out all systems built using the same parts should be fine. Any changes that affect heat output or cooling will require retesting.

Bill

**JonC1087** · Sep-07-2010, 05:24 AM

Thanks everyone again for the help. The main intent for these budget gaming machines we're creating is for a gaming center, sorta like a game caffe minus the food and drinks. I'd hate to have to get into health inspections for handling food, etc >.<. Anyway, I believe we can crank up the AC in the store to our advantage in this case to keep our Game PC's and Xbox consoles cooler since the air intake will be at a lower temp. I'm very glad you went more into depth on the cooling part because I've heard various things and rumors about component temps. One that I've really taken a heavy interest into is the HDD and the very high failure rates of cooler HDD's compared to overheating HDD's. As for monitoring the temps, I also use speed fan, but I really like the sensor menu in "System info for windows" or "SIW". We ran the game machine at full speed under a stress test for 6 hours with the GPU fan speed set at 60%, this kept the card at a steady temp of 107 degrees Fahrenheit. The CPU was at a steady 127 degrees Fahrenheit. The case has 2 120mm fans, one front intake, and one rear exhaust like you stated. There is also a large fan on the top that exhausts, It's in the 300mm range in size. Then another fan on the side casing right across from the GPU, it's a smaller one, I think between 40-80mm. I've never felt any warm air come out of this thing though, even after gaming for a while.
Aside from that though, this machine was built for approx $700.00 because we didn't need to buy any Windows 7 keys. I just built the new scheme for the next one, and according to benchmarks, it will be better. It will have:

-Intel Core i5-750 ( intel CPU with the highest CPU mark / price) This will give us more flexibility for upgrading the CPU in the future since there seems to be a wider variety of 1156 socket CPU's than the AM3. And far better architecture and performance in the i3,i5 and i7 line.

-GeForce GTX 470 (This places #2 on the passmark benchmark scale and is the same price as the ATI HD 5850 that ranks #6)

-Still stickin to 4GB DDR3 for now.

-Reducing HDD size down to 500GB to save some cash.

-Going with a single PCIE slot MB for around $65 by EVGA to save cash.

-750W PSU ( can't ever remember the brand or vendor for this one )

This is an $800.00 build that we hope to sell for around 1,000.00 + rent it for gaming.

I think that I've gained a far better understanding now for gaming machines over the last few days, so I really appreciate everyones help and patience here. If you can think of anything else I should know about gaming PC"s please let me know.

oh PS: Is it ok to build a DDR2 gaming machine these days if the CPU and GPU are good?

I have a Gamers republic board that takes DDR2 but has 4GB of crucial memory in it right now and a Core 2 Xtreme (quad core) CPU that scored around a 5,000 for the passmark bench. Also, another GTX 470 for this machine. Would DDR2 be ok in this case? or does the memory speed have too much to do with it? If I bumped up to 8GB would it be fine for DDR2? I'd just hate to see that great board, CPU and memory go to waste just because it was DDR2

Also already has a liquid cooling system installed for the CPU. Ok, I'm stopping now, thanks in advance for the help

**wonderwrench** · Sep-07-2010, 01:07 PM

-Intel Core i5-750 ( intel CPU with the highest CPU mark / price) This will give us more flexibility for upgrading the CPU in the future since there seems to be a wider variety of 1156 socket CPU's than the AM3. And far better architecture and performance in the i3,i5 and i7 line.

Intel has a bad habit of changing sockets every year or two. Intel is getting ready to release sandy bridge, most likely requiring a new motherboard. AMD on the other hand keeps sockets/compatibility much longer. They are do for a socket change at some point though most likely for Bulldozer.
I do agree that Intel's i series processors out pace AMD on the high end.

-GeForce GTX 470 (This places #2 on the passmark benchmark scale and is the same price as the ATI HD 5850 that ranks #6)

That sounds about right. Keep in mind, the GTX 470 runs hot and sucks power. The HD 5850 runs cool and sips power.

-Still stickin to 4GB DDR3 for now.

4 gigs will work well as long as the systems are kept clean.

-750W PSU ( can't ever remember the brand or vendor for this one )

Sounds much bigger than really needed. Try the Power supply calculator.

oh PS: Is it ok to build a DDR2 gaming machine these days if the CPU and GPU are good?

There is no real life speed difference between DDR2 and DDR3. I'd stay way from DDR2 because of cost. DDR2 prices will only go up in the future.

I have a Gamers republic board that takes DDR2 but has 4GB of crucial memory in it right now and a Core 2 Xtreme (quad core) CPU that scored around a 5,000 for the passmark bench. Also, another GTX 470 for this machine. Would DDR2 be ok in this case? or does the memory speed have too much to do with it? If I bumped up to 8GB would it be fine for DDR2? I'd just hate to see that great board, CPU and memory go to waste just because it was DDR2

Also already has a liquid cooling system installed for the CPU. Ok, I'm stopping now, thanks in advance for the help

Sounds good to me.

Bill

**David (PassMark)** · Sep-07-2010, 11:07 PM

My comment would be the same. 750W PSU is overkill if you only have 1 GPU, 1 HD, and 1 CPU.

Picking the right PSU will both save you upfront cost and ongoing power. A 300W PSU will supply 50W of power more efficiently than a 1000W PSU will.

If you are putting the machines in a Cafe, considering imaging all the drives. Will speed up recovery when your clients mess up the machine.

**JonC1087** · Sep-09-2010, 11:25 PM

Thanks again guys for the insight. I'm going to knock down the wattage of that PSU like you both said. Also, on the GTX 470, although it runs hotter and sucks more power, Do you feel that the 5850 is overall a better card in the long run? I mean, I don't want to run a fast card that will die in a year or less vs one that runs almost as good that will not run so hot and fast, but will last longer. I'll keep it as cool as possible when we get it though. Also, for the cloning idea, I'm right there with ya.

we already planned on using our Acronis tools to keep up the Operating systems, only we will have different builds of machines, but they will all be high performance, so one master HDD won't work, we'll need one master in the bottom of each ones case to re-image from. As of now, it looks as if we are going to be using 2-3 different builds for machines. The two that I have already listed, and an additional build that will be around the same performance mark. Basically, My boss and I have agreed that we will not build a machine that benchmarks below a 1,700 on the passmark scale (overall score) simply because anything lower than that becomes questionable to performance on todays modern games.

Thanks again guys for the great advice.

Jonathan

**wonderwrench** · Sep-10-2010, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by JonC1087 View Post

Thanks again guys for the insight. I'm going to knock down the wattage of that PSU like you both said. Also, on the GTX 470, although it runs hotter and sucks more power, Do you feel that the 5850 is overall a better card in the long run? I mean, I don't want to run a fast card that will die in a year or less vs one that runs almost as good that will not run so hot and fast, but will last longer. I'll keep it as cool as possible when we get it though. Also, for the cloning idea, I'm right there with ya.

we already planned on using our Acronis tools to keep up the Operating systems, only we will have different builds of machines, but they will all be high performance, so one master HDD won't work, we'll need one master in the bottom of each ones case to re-image from. As of now, it looks as if we are going to be using 2-3 different builds for machines. The two that I have already listed, and an additional build that will be around the same performance mark. Basically, My boss and I have agreed that we will not build a machine that benchmarks below a 1,700 on the passmark scale (overall score) simply because anything lower than that becomes questionable to performance on todays modern games.

Thanks again guys for the great advice.

Jonathan

The GTX 470 should hold up just fine. My 8800GT SSC runs 86+C under heavy gaming and its been running without problems for 3 years. The GTX 470 will put out way more heat and possibly noise. It will also be faster than a HD5850. A better match up would be a GTX 470 and a HD5870. Nvidia is better at some games and ATI is better at others. It all depends on the game. If you know what games are going to be played you can look for reviews that use the games in their testing. Anandtech and Tomshardware are to good sources of info.

Personally I would look at a 1 gig GTX 460 as it should play any game out at decent frame rates. Its low power and runs cool. I'm going to get one myself if my wife's car stops draining me of money. Anandtech has a good review that compares power draw, heat and noise of most cards out. Keep in mind different brand cards may use different coolers and clock rates which will affect power draw, heat and noise.

On the PSU front make sure you get quality supplies. Do not skimp or it will come back to haunt you. I'm a big fan of Corsair and Seasonic my self. Jonnyguru has the best PSU reviews IMHO. Decide what size you really need and then have a look at his reviews. Anandtech, Tomshardware and Hardocp also have good reviews. From what you have said about what you plan on building a quality 600 watt supply should be fine. Check final build specs using the power supply calc in my previous post to be sure.

Bill

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